Being a scientist, I decided the best thing to do was run some experiments.
187 or so points of Sanguinary Guard vs the +/- same in Death Company!
Any bets here?
Experiment #1 (all as modeled)
5 Sanguinary Guard, 2 Power fists, 3 Swords, 2 infernous pistols, 3 angelus bolt guns:
7 Death Company with jump packs, 1 power fist, 2 power axes, 3 power swords, 1 chainsword, 5 bolt pistols, 2 plasma pistols:
Going along with my earlier post, the Sanguinary Guard have a total of 10 wounds with a base 2+ save, while the Death Company has 7 wounds, and a base 3+ save and 6+ FNP. The Sanguinary Guard have 8 shooting dice and the Death Company have 7 (as modeled).
Both get red thirst (+1 to wound rolls on turns charging or charged), Death Company also have black rage (+1 attack when charging). Both can jump 12 inches.
I randomly started the test with a few spectators nearby. Is that Captain Slamguinius?
The units were randomly started +/- 36 inches apart. Sanguinary Guard (SG) won the roll to go first. The SG advanced 15 inches. In response the Death Company (DC) jumped forward and shot, putting one wound on a SG.
In the first round, the DC went first, with the dice not so hot. They assaulted with 18 dice, needing 3s and 4s to hit and 3's and 2's to wound. They caused 5 wounds, of which three failed. The SG were now down to 3 models (all swords).
In response, the SG swung back, 6 attacks, 3's to hit, 3's to wound. They caused 3 wounds, two failed. The DC were now down to 4 models to 3 SG models.
On turn 2, the SG first use the 1 remaining infernous pistol, removing another DC marine. The DC are now down to 3. In the continued assault, the SG swordsmen removing the remaining three DC models.
Experiment #2 (Same as Above)
I reran the experiment. It pretty much ended exactly the same way. The SG again won the roll to go first, charged in, lost a few models (I kept removing the power fist guys as casualties for the SG, whereas the preference for the DC was to remove the lower AP weapon armed models first).
After two turns it ended the same way. The SG still had 3 models on the table, and the DC had none.
Experiment #3 (Who needs Jump packs or Pistols?)
In this case I swapped out the jump pack, pistol packing DC for:
10 Death Company, 9 bolters, 9 chainswords, and 1 Thunderhammer.
(10 wounds, 9-18 shooting dice)
I have to paint up and add chainswords to these models...probably will "mag-loc" them to their power packs if possible.
Since they were fighting around some wreckage, I did include a +1 cover save to units within the wreckage from shooting).
In this case, the DC won the roll to go first. After checking ranges, determined to advance a total of 11 inches. Their bolters were still out of range. The SG jumped forward to meet them. The SG opened up with shooting, taking one DC marine down. The SG then failed their charge.
Sorry for the next few shots being upside down!
On turn 2, the DC started with shooting - 16 dice, needing 3s to hit and 4s to wound. The DC then charged. The SG overwatch caused no wounds. The DC assault was a large block of dice - 8 DC chainsword marines with black rage = 32 dice, plus 3 thunderhammer dice. Needing 3's or 4's to hit and 3's or 2's to wound. 35 dice resolved to 18 (all chainsword) wounds, resolved to 1 unsaved (2+) wound. In response, 4 DC were removed. We are down to 4 SG vs 5 DC.
In turn 3, the assaults continued. The DC, going first, removed another SG marine and put a wound on another.
In response, the three remaining SG (shooting one DC with an infernous pistol) completed the assault by wiping out the remaining DC (again).
So...what do we get out of this? Note I did not bother with morale checks for either side. That was intentional, as I wanted them to fight it out. Overall, I think it was a good measure of what the Sanguinary Guard could do. Where possible I supercharged the plasma pistols on the jump pack DC, to try to overcome the SG better. It failed. One thing I do need to practice better having grown a bit rusty in the past few months is to use the pistols every turn possible. Every little bit helps!
Overall, I'm thinking that the decision to use SG vs DC will be local meta-driven. Certainly I'm thinking the SG are better - their Angelus boltguns are assault and -1 AP, and they all pack power weapons. If anything the infernous pistols they are modeled with are a point of inefficiency, compared to cheaper plasma. For now they stay...
I may try some lists with just more SG in them. Especially where I suspect I'll be encountering other marine equivalents. Overall, I should look at lists that separate the SG from the DC, in order to more effectively benefit from their differences.
DC may get relegated to games where I am to encounter xenos or astra militarum. Maybe create some Lemartes' led lists and really focus those lists on the DC strengths. I am still looking to replace DC pistols with bolters now. It is something I just need to get completed. Sorry for the hand swaps little model dudes! I did not create the rules as currently written!
Another piece of work to look at is evaluating who is better - a Sanguinary Ancient - or Chapter Ancient!
What are your thoughts?
MING
One on one, the Sanguinary Guard are better than the DC.
ReplyDeleteThe test comes when they face other armies. That 2+ save and 2W isn't as sparkly against a unit of Hellblasters, a Lascannon Predator, etc. It's more efficient to shoot the SG with those units than the DC.
The high Strength and multiple Damage values of those weapons/units are tailor made for killing elite infantry models.
I'd be interested to see how hand flamers work on SG who end up stuck in combat.
Really depends on who you're up against. They fill different roles, despite both being elite CC Units. The Sanguinary Guard are better at taking out hard targets, as shown in the head to head comparison here. But the Death Company are way better at clearing out the screens and chaff Units that can keep you from getting at those hard targets.
ReplyDeleteI've seen a number of BA Players taking both, starting the DC on the table and using them to take out Scouts/Conscripts/Culties/whatever, so the SG have better options to drop in and hit the good stuff on Turn 2/3.
Thanks for the comments! I've been using lists with both at the same time. It has been a struggle in all of my Blood Angel games, and what I'm trying to start on is a path of lists that yield the most dakka and most wounds for the points, balanced with a sense of resiliency. I've been watching games and reading blogs from other BA players, and it is clearly hard to find BA games where the DC or SG paths were shown to be better or not. I'm ramping up for the next level of tests, to be a broader SG force led by a complimenting HQ vs a DC force of similar construction for the same points. Should be interesting!
ReplyDeleteYou are also missing out on strategems. Deathconpany have a great one that lets them do a pre first turn move.
ReplyDeleteStratagems are coming in the near future, but in this case are offsetting - not much difference between the death company being able to leap forward vs the sanguinary guard to be able to drop down. The stage is set for a Sanguinary Guard vs Death Company 400 or so point battle hopefully tonight.
ReplyDeletePart of the inherent expense of SG comes from the buff they get being close to a warlord, re-rolling all failed hit rolls shooting and CC. They don't get that in these trials, and there is a decent chance they attempt to engage a screen squad while your warlord engages a high priority target.
ReplyDelete